S. 1 Ep. 41 – Persuasion: A Tool or Manipulation? You Decide.

Taylorr: Welcome to another episode of Technically Speaking, where your hosts, Taylorr and Austin and today we are having a wonderful conversation. One of our favorite topics here at Speaker Flow about sales and more specifically persuasion. And we’re talking about whether or not it’s a tool or if it’s manipulation and how persuasion should actually be perceived and used during your sales efforts. Now, a perfect person to talk about This is Moeed Amin. And for over 20 years, Moeed has been obsessed with how and why people make decisions. His journey started when he graduated in neuroscience, where he learned about the brain structure and the impact this has on the psychology of influence and decision-making. He found it Proverbial Door because he was frustrated by the current advice and training on sales and persuasion. 

He’s now on a mission to give everyone the best tools and strategies to become incredible persuaders without compromising on their values and changing who they are. So, if you’re ready to sharpen those sales skills, this episode is certainly for you and as always, we really hope you enjoy this one. And we are live. Moeed, welcome to the show. It is such a pleasure to have you here today. 

Moeed: Thank you Taylorr, it’s a pleasure to be here with you and Austin. I’m looking forward to our discussion today. 

Taylorr: Yeah, for sure. And I think, Austin, I don’t know if I’m wrong here, but this has to be one of our favorite subjects. Am I right? 

Austin: Oh, I absolutely agree. Yes. Sales persuasion, anything to do with that relationship that has to get developed as you’re working on getting your services out there, it’s one of the most important topics and I think it’s one of the ones that people feel the most uncomfortable about in terms of how they actually develop that skill set. So Moeed, I’m sure whatever advice that we’re going to talk about today is going to be extremely useful so thanks for taking the time to be here.

Moeed: My pleasure, my pleasure. 

Taylorr: So, one of our favorite ways to kick off the shell is just so everyone can get familiar with who you are and your background. And so how did you end up in this crazy world of thought leadership? What was your journey like? And yeah, why persuasion? 

Moeed: I mean like a lot of people in sales, I fell into it, it was definitely not by design. I completed my neuroscience degree at university or college, as you say, in the U S and like a lot of people, always kind of [inaudible 02:40] with money and I wanted to make a lot of money and I equated that with success. I didn’t see being a researcher in neuroscience that path to doing so. So, I converted to law, mistakenly thinking that law might be the answer. My mother was a lawyer and I thought, why not try that. Completed that, but ended up hating it, while I was looking for work, I kept seeing these sales job postings popping up.

I started looking at them and I thought, well, the money looks pretty good, why don’t I just do that for a while as a temporary thing until I can figure out what I really want to do with my life. And since then, I’ve really been in sales. It wasn’t without it’s challenges, you know, the first sales job I had, I had to resign before they were going to fire me. Even though I helped close a multi-million-dollar contract, there were other aspects to the work that I was doing that just wasn’t really up to standard.  Luckily for me another company heard about that deal that I was involved with and headhunted me, and that’s really where a company named Data Monitor, that’s where my sales career really took off.

The interesting part that you ask why persuasion is because very early on, I realized that I was trying to do what every other sales person was doing. The a hundred calls a day, pushing features, benefits, advantages, pushing my agenda and it wasn’t really going well, and there was a weird situation one weekend, I remember I was cleaning my bookshelf and a book fell on my head. It literally fell on my head and it was a really heavy book and I just looked down thinking, what is this? Which book is this? And it happened to be an old textbook I had from university on behavioral neuroscience. And when I picked up that book, just suddenly everything changed for me, I realized some fundamentals around there was nothing about the buying behavior, the buying process, the buying thoughts and patterns of how they make decisions in any element of the sales training that I’d received. 

And from then it became less about sales and more around persuasion and more about giving value to the people that I’m working with and helping them achieve the outcomes, helping them look like heroes amongst whichever community they want to be a hero for. I then started becoming more successful in sales, winning loads of awards, went into sales management and then I remember my boss who was a C-level in this particular company, he was walking me through some of their training, and I kind of stopped him. I said, that’s not going to work, that’s way too complex. And we started formulating some of the training programs of a specific module, and it became so successful in Europe that it went out to the whole world in this particular business, all of their offices. 

I found that I really enjoyed the coaching and training side. And from there, it was a slight slow journey to kind of creating my own business, but that’s what I really enjoy. And that’s why we’re here today because I created that business in order to start not only training, but consulting businesses on how they need to change their sales approach from everything, not just training, but the infrastructure and the culture, which is a huge part of that. And I’ve never looked back since then, I’ve enjoyed it thoroughly. So that’s in a nutshell, my journey of around just over 15 years in the professional field, at least. 

Austin: Wow. That really is a journey. Holy cow. There’s a lot to unpack there. There’s a couple of interesting things that I heard that I just want to make sure I actually do hear them right. First one that is interesting is that you came from sort of a science background, turned sales person, Taylorr, I’m sure you’re going to want to elaborate on that since you took a very similar path here. Another thing that I thought was funny is that you literally got hit in the head by inspiration.

Moeed: Yeah, not making that up.

Austin: That’s so funny. Sometimes you hear epiphanies hit you like a brick in the head or something, and that was literally true for you, which is so funny. Something else that I found was a little fascinating though, is that there’s a lot of salespeople that become sales managers, trainers, and so on because they’ve done an amazing job as a salesperson. And as a business owner and somebody that’s also managed sales teams, I know that sometimes promoting somebody that’s a high performer into a management [inaudible 07:09] role, isn’t always the right move because the skillset required to be an amazing salesperson doesn’t always translate well into leadership or training oriented and it sounds like for you, it did, which I think is awesome and it obviously shows that you kind of moved into that right position. So anyways, those are a couple of things I heard. I’m curious for you though, like, what was that transition like moving from the role of a person who’s selling into that of a trainer?

Moeed: For me, it felt natural, far more natural than being a sales manager or sales leader. It wasn’t the easy transition to become a sales manager. I made a lot of mistakes, some of them very bad. I think it’s because, and I don’t know if you know Mark Schaefer, and I read one of his books called Known, he’s very well known in the marketing field. And he said something that really resonated with me, which was that he had the soul of the teacher. And I think that’s why the transition to coaching and training felt so natural for me because I do have that soul of a teacher and the soul of someone where I want to impart that knowledge in order to help people. I always been like that ever since I was young, whenever I’d learned something new, I was so excited, not because I learned something new, but because I wanted to share it with the people around me. And I found myself when I was very young, enjoying the sharing aspect more than just the acquiring of the knowledge itself.

So, for me, it felt very natural. And why that works for me is because a lot of people get attracted to the ego element of being able to teach or to train people. For me, it was I was more obsessed about how do I impart the knowledge in a way that makes it stick. And that’s where I started digging even further into the neuroscience and the behavioral psychology element, because it’s also down to the structure. You’ve got to think about firstly, how do you keep people focused on what you have to say? Because your mind will wander. And more importantly, in some respect is how can that stay? Because you’re asking people to change their habits. 

One of the critical points where that decision will be made and whether someone will grow or not is when pressure is exerted on that person and they feel that pressure and stress, they will immediately shun to what they’re comfortable with. Either things that they’ve been doing for a long time because it’s literally physically wired into their system, but in order to get someone to try and do something that’s new, that is a better way, you’ve got to kind of almost insert yourself at those critical junctures when that will happen, because it’s at those points where they will be tested and they will either do the harder thing, which is your way or a new way, or they’ll go to the easier part, which is what they’ve always done. And most of the time it will always be, well actually all the time, it will be what was easier done. So that’s why I even changed the structure of how I actually do the training itself. 

I don’t just walk in and do some training for one or two days or three days. I insist on a program where I actually have some coaching elements in there, and it’s usually a six-month program and any company that doesn’t want that I just politely decline because I know it’s not going to really make a difference. So maybe slightly long answer to your question, but hopefully that kind of makes sense. 

Austin: Yeah, that was a good answer. 

Taylorr: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And the thing that I love about that is I’ll just love that you can tell that you’ve really mastered this art just some of the language that you use. For example, you mentioned insist that they go with a six-month program and then if they don’t think that’s a good fit, then you politely decline them. That’s exactly the mentality that people need to have when selling, when persuading, when trying to bring people into their doors. So, I’m grateful that you used that language just now as you were explaining that answer, because it kind of really gives people a sense of what might they need to do so that they can say no to more business to accept some more business. One of the things earlier that you mentioned though, that kind of just stood out to me is that, you started the Proverbial Door because you were frustrated by the current advice and the training and the strategies on sales and persuasion. I’m kind of curious like what some of those things were. What is some of the current feedback around or training rather, around sales and persuasion and why were you frustrated by that current advice?

Moeed: Yeah, and I’ve had the privilege of being able to observe and work with over a thousand companies. Some of them, I directly worked with others, it was an observation through other work that I was doing. In a nutshell, l sale is still stuck in the nineties, the approach, the incentive structure, the compensation plans, the training, the KPIs, everything around, it’s not just the sales people and their skills and techniques, it’s the whole ecosystem and infrastructure around them. It’s still stuck in the nineties and it’s geared towards a hundred calls… I have no problem with a hundred calls a day, but when you’re only converting two of them into a meeting, you’ve got to start looking at that and saying, that is inefficient. No matter how much you cut that, whatever different way you cut that, that is still really inefficient, there’s got to be a better way. The other way it’s stuck in the nineties is just the horrible outbound approaches that we’re seeing in terms of the messaging. 

It is all about the salesperson and the company, not just about the product. The product that’s even worse, but even once companies and salespeople have got past the whole, I need to talk about my product, the hooks, the angles, the reasons, the approach, the agenda, the structure of the whole call and the meeting, it’s so clear it’s just all about them. And that is so far in the nineties because we now live… back in the 90’s buyers, when they were acquiring information, or they were trying to learn about how to do their job in a better way one of the main sources of knowledge, were the vendors of these companies. Nowadays we live in a radically transparent and radically noisy world. And the buyers, most of their information, they can gather that on their own and through their own sources, whether it’s the internet, whether it’s the network, it’s just so much easier to gather that information right now. There’s a research by Gartner where just about 19% of that buyer’s journey will involve a sales person and that’s usually towards the end.

Taylorr: That’s right.

Moeed: Now there are some elements about that research that we have to be very kind of careful about, but what it does tell you anecdotally, at least is the sales person, his or her sphere of influence with the buyer has shrunk a huge amount. And there is a reason why naturally biota moving away from engaging with salespeople. LinkedIn did a study in 2020, and they found that 40% of buyers consider the sales profession as untrustworthy. 25% of the buyers consider the sales profession to be quote, morally and ethically challenged, end quote. Si we are in some ways, the reason why our profession is seen as so untrustworthy because of the very approaches that we have. Buyers now make decisions in a radically different way to what they used to in the nineties and that means the sales approach and even the way that we manage our salespeople has to completely change. It doesn’t mean we have to do everything that the buyer says because that leads down to commoditization. But we’re so far apart, the curtain is so big in between how buyers buy and think about and make decisions versus how sales people approach that process that is just glaringly bad in a lot of respects. 

That’s where my frustration came from because there was very little training or even awareness around the buying psychology. It was still caming from the perspective of the sales approach, we try to make the buyer journey look similar to the sales journey from the sales approach. So that’s where I got very fra… and the other side of the whole sales training is a very big part, which is the seller’s mindset. The psychology of the seller. There’s a lot of research, but there’s a lot of saying as well, where you’ve probably heard this way, success is 80% psychology, 20% skills. Now, the numbers are not important, what is clear is that your psychology, your mindset is a huge part of your success.

And in the sales industry, there’s a habit where if we want to improve performance, we just shovel a load more training and skills and tools to the salespeople. But a lot of the times, it’s not that they lack skill, it’s not that they lack knowledge it’s that they lack the techniques and the ability to shift their mindset in a way where they can be the best version of themselves in every meeting. And when you’re the best version of yourself in every meeting, it’s not just about confidence, suddenly you will remember some of those tools and you will pick the ones that are needed for the right moment. I use the analogy of imagine a bed of soil, and you throw a bunch of seeds on the soil hoping to harvest and get a lush bloom of flowers, et cetera. The current sales approach is when they don’t see any growth, you just throw more seeds, more seeds, more seeds, more seeds on that soil, but the soil is not very good quality, therefore those seeds are not going to nurture.

Contrast that with approach that I’m trying to do and some groups that I’m part of a doing, which is if the soil is incredibly fertile, all you need to do is throw a handful of seeds and they will flourish. The soil is the mindset, the psychology. The seeds represent the knowledge and the skills. And hopefully that kind of explains where I’m coming from. That’s what got me so frustrated about the current sales methodology. Now, there are a few people out there that are absolutely trying to change this. Mark Hunter is one of them, and there are a few others, but we represent a very small number of the large community. And unfortunately, there is also the pressure from investors and the founders of these companies themselves that are instilling some very bad behaviors in their salespeople as well because they’re in the pursuit of money, they want to sell their business for millions. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s going about it in the wrong way that is exacerbating the issue. 

Austin: A lot of what you’re talking about here Moeed. One of the things that kind of came to mind as you were unpacking, this is something we talk about all the time, and I’d love to get your take on this, and it’s the importance of building a genuine, meaningful relationship during the sales process. Where it’s not so much about driving them to making the ideal decision that you’re looking for, but taking the approach of an advisor, helping people pick through options and weigh the different outcomes that they’re looking for and being a friend and a coach through the process to help them be extremely confident in their decision by the time they come out with it. Because a confident buyer that is bought into the process is much more likely to both implement and stand behind the processes that are put in place to get the results that they’re looking for through whatever service or product that you’re selling to them. So, I’m curious, from the perspective of the psychology and the mindset that you’re talking about, how important is the relationship that’s developed through that process?

Moeed: Yeah. It’s a great question, Austin and there’s a lot in there over 15 years, I have conducted a research with just about 400 business to business buyers across 10 industries and different seniority levels. And the purpose for this research was to find out what made them select a particular seller or group of salespeople, both in a competitive and a non-competitive bid. Every single one of those buyers either use the word trust or honesty as part of their reasons. Every single one. 

Austin: Wow.

Moeed: Now let’s talk about that from the relationship perspective, as you said, Austin. You will have a good relationship with someone if you trust them. You trust them that they have the expertise, you also trust their character. And we can go into what the eight markers of a trustworthy characteristic is because it’s very important just to step back for a second. Sales is a lever of business, at least in the business-to-business world, but you know, B2C as well you can say the same as speakers It’s the same thing as well. If that is a lever of business, then why are we not approaching the conversation as if it’s a business relationship and a long-term relationship at that? Too often it’s, I’m the seller, you’re the buyer. I’m going to try and trick you into buying something. You’re going to fall for that trick, I’m going to get my commission and then I’m off. But if we took this as a business approach where we’re in this together, we’re going to do this for the betterment of both of us and this is a long-term thing, all of a sudden, your approach, even just your perspective is going to completely change.

I’m not here to sell you a service, I am here to help you make a smart decision that will lead to the outcomes that you want. I [inaudible 21:02] that salespeople are decision-making agents. You don’t talk about yourself and your product until the very end. What you’re trying to do is help them make smart decisions. Now yes, that should invariably lead down to what you do, but it may not either and when you do that in the right way, you are in a great position where you are now a trusted person, you’re within that circle of trust. Once you were in that circle of trust, it’s only a matter of time before they will start to work with you. But even if that doesn’t happen, because they trust you, they will connect you with others who will want to do business with you because that person has referred you. This is a long game, this is not necessarily a short game, which unfortunately, salespeople adhere to with their KPIs, et cetera. In my view, it’s really about establishing that relationship of trust and it’s about how you conduct yourself in that trustworthy manner. So yeah, but before I go any further, does that, make sense? 

Taylorr: That makes perfect sense. It’s unfortunate that it’s not common sense is the first thought that comes into my head as we’re having these discussions. I don’t know about you guys, of course, you guys have experienced this, just your backgrounds but the most beautiful business relationships that happen are with your customers, that you have the closest relationships to, that you can have a positive impact for and yeah, unfortunately that just gets trickled down to the point of KPIs, commissions and so on that really make it seem like a robotic process and then one of trickery. And I know you have some other thoughts to add here Moeed, but I can’t help, but ask this question, we’re really talking about the building a relationship and being a human being, showing up as yourself being authentic, not using any forms of trickery to catch your commission. Is it as simple as that? And where does persuasion fit into this mix? Because persuasion has this connotation of intent to move someone’s direction into another light, basically. Like you are intentfully using tactics to get people to be persuaded, basically. Now how can we make that balance of persuasion and make sure we still have the tactics to be successful in our roles while balancing out the fact that it all starts with the relationship and that’s where it begins.

Moeed: Yeah, very simply, by remembering that persuasion is a tool, not the outcome.

Taylorr: Nice.

Moeed: So just as with software. Let’s think about speakers for example, and they have their business, they’re trying to become well-renowned speakers and they may not have the time to be able to speak to as many people as possible in terms of their sales outreach, just as an example. And what they will then do is they will get a software that will help them scale and automate their emails, like their email outreaches, for example. But scaling email outreach, the software is a tool, the outcome is to engage and have a meaningful engagement with as many people as possible. We get lost in the fact that persuasion is the outcome whereas actually it’s just a tool. The outcome that I have is to provide incredible value and to help the person that I’m engaging with. Persuasion is just a means by doing that. So, if my intent is to manipulate, then I will use manipulative persuasion tactics. But if my intent is to truly serve this person and serve them for the long-term and create an incredible business partnership with this person where we both elevate each other, then my means of persuasion, my means of engaging with that person is going to be on a completely different level. So that’s the simple answer to your question. Just remember that persuasion and all these techniques are using are tools, but what is your outcome? What is your purpose? What are you trying to achieve here?

Austin: Man, I love that. And that takes some of the pressure off of persuasion being inherently good or bad because it’s not, it’s just a tool, just like, I don’t know, a hammer. You can smash somebody’s finger and that’s a bad thing or you can hang a beautiful picture on the wall, and that’s a good thing. And the tool itself doesn’t have an inherent good or a bad, it’s the intent behind how it’s being used those matters. And what you just said there that I love and I really hope our listeners are listening or paying attention to, is that persuasion when built into an outcome that’s inherently positive, meaning that your intention is to serve and to do right by the person that you’re working with, then persuasion is just a tool to help you do that. It’s not something where you’re being tricky. You’re not trying to talk them into doing something that’s not good for them. It’s helping them shape their understanding of a specific topic or subject or their own outcome that they’re looking for in order to help them hit their goals. Am I understanding that right from your seat? 

Moeed: Yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly it. It’s the intention, it’s the purpose, it’s what you’re trying to do. That is the overlying thing here. Am trying to create a relationship where I just get my commission or am I trying to create a relationship where I’m delivering an incredible outcome that I can take pride in and the by-product is my commission. 

Taylorr: So do you think that that’s where some of the uncomfort comes from when it comes to this sales persuasion topic? I know a lot of the people that we work with personally are constantly telling us, yeah, I just don’t want to be that like shady, sleazy salesperson. And so, I think people inherently feel this sort of, I don’t know, potentially morally wrong attitude that they have to bring in the conversation. That’s probably not the most eloquent way to say that, but you feel like that that’s where some of this comes from is that people just aren’t properly looking at what persuasion means to a sales process and that’s where that uncomfort comes from?

Moeed: Yeah. Sales has a bad name, that’s just so obvious and a lot of salespeople don’t even want to call themselves salespeople. I would say that their view of the world just like mine in some aspects as well, their view of the world is very narrow. Because you might see a lot of bad salespeople for example, but there are equally a ton of incredible ones as well and I think you just need to find who those people are and watch and learn what they do and hear what they say. Because the best salespeople that I’ve interviewed over my time, I call them business people before salespeople. One of the elements of persuasion is, and then it speaks to trust. It’s more than just salespeople being advisors, they are business advisors. So, to give you an example, one of the most powerful techniques you can use even as a speaker, is at the beginning of your presentation, your brain is wired to notice things that surprise you, notice things that stand out because when you’re used to something, your brain is basically saying, okay, we’re used to it, we’ve come into contact with it before it’s safe. 

It’s not killed us yet, It’s safe. But the moment it notices something out of place or within its framework of what could be a danger immediately, it will pull focus into that. And at the beginning of your discussion, most salespeople, most speakers will probably talk about themselves or they will open their discussion with something that’s quite general, quite well-known, but the most powerful persuaders of those that make a statement that falls under what I call the CUES framework. So charlie, uniform, echo, sierra. Cues. And that is they make a statement that arouses curiosity, it provides a unique perspective to a commonly known situation, or even better, a completely new or unique information. It is something that arouses the listeners’ emotions because emotions move us, not thoughts, or even perceptions. Emotions are very powerful, and then the final one is that it’s got to be something that’s surprising. 

So, if you can help your viewer or your buyer, see unforeseen problems, see around corners, help them see an unforeseen problem that they just weren’t even aware of or help them see an unforeseen opportunity that they didn’t realize they were missing, suddenly you’d value that person so much more because you’ve helped them identify something that’s totally new, but you’ve also help prevent them from experiencing harm. And because they didn’t even see that that was going to happen, they didn’t understand that that was going to happen, suddenly you’re someone that’s almost, you’ve got a crystal ball, someone that they that can look into the future to help them and someone that they can trust. So, this ability of helping your buyers or your viewers be able to see around corners is incredibly powerful and too few salespeople do that, It’s very linear.

It’s all about, we can help you improve performance or improve sales or reduce costs but most of these people are hired to do that. But if you can help them by saying, hey, if you continue down this path, because the way the world is changing or your competitors, whatever it is actually in two- or three-years’ time, you’re going to come across this situation here and by that time, you would have lost X. Now, if the buyer hadn’t foreseen that would have happened, suddenly they’re like, woah, hang on a second, this person seeing things that me and my whole team are not able to see this person’s valuable. I want to hear more about what this person has to say. Too few salespeople do that again, it’s just very linear, it’s just all about them. Rarely about… if you ask a sales person, for example, and I ask this all the time and you’d be shocked how bad the answers are and, in most cases, they don’t even have an answer.

I ask them, I say, look, who is it that you’re selling to? And they might say chief technology officer, or as a speaker, they might say, well, I’m selling to this person that wants to improve their lifestyle or health, whatever it might be. And then you ask them, tell me about the KPIs or the MBOs, how do they measure if they’re growing? How will that buyer be measured by his or her boss in that performance review that will determine whether they’ve done a good job and if they’re going to get that promotion or that bonus? Shockingly few salespeople around the world are able to answer that question confidently. So, if you don’t even know how your buyer’s going to be assessed on whether he or she has done a good job, how could you possibly say that you can give them value? Because if it’s not aligned to that, then it’s not important to them. 

So too few salespeople think about the buyer, truly think about the buyer and from their perspective, it’s just all about them and their agenda and that is why buyers don’t like sellers, because it’s so transparently obvious that it’s about the seller’s interest only, not the buyers. It’s okay, if it’s a mutual benefit, but in most instances it’s not even mutual, it’s just so far down the seller’s interests that the buyer is barely featured as long as they get them the commission.

Taylorr: Right. Well, that’s some practical advice there. Oh, wow. That was just an incredible amount of value Moeed. Thank you so much for sharing all of that.

Moeed: My pleasure.

Taylorr: It’s very obvious, that you’ve been around the block long enough to understand as have we though, and of course with your neuroscience background it’s obviously reinforces this a bit, but the fact that persuasion is a tool and not an outcome, the fact that we need to put ourselves in our customers’ shoes, way more often than we actually do and truly be there with them, act as a guide show them the opportunities or show them around the corner like you said, I feel like that visualization is perfect. Just give them a peek around the corner of what to be expected so it’s that you have that crystal ball, that you’re the guide truly to their story of helping them improve. Unfortunately, like we said earlier, it’s unfortunate that it’s not common sense that we have to be in this world of just transaction rather than actually focusing on the relationship. I’m so glad there are folks like yourself, Mark Hunter, and all of our other sales friends out there preaching this gospel, so to speak. Now Moeed, you know that we’re all about providing value here for our audience at Speaker Flow. I’m curious, what are some of the things that you’re working on right now that our listeners can benefit from?

Moeed: I have a video cast channel that is on YouTube, so if they just search for Proverbial Door, which is my company name, we do videos, not just about sales, because success, it’s not about the skills or the knowledge you acquire along the way, success is about the person you become. And for you to become that person, there are certain elements of how you conduct yourself at changes, so your habits and the way you think, et cetera. So those podcasts don’t just look at sales, I have videos on body language and human behavior, they are videos on business acumen. So, my friend and I actually analyze well-known companies, companies in a public market and we look at their finances and we teach salespeople how to be able to read finances and get an understanding of the business they’re talking to.

I even have a video with someone who’s a functional medicine expert, which is all about how do you kind of look after yourself so that you can actually deal with the intensity of sales when it comes to your focus and your memory and your creativity, all those good things. And I’m also on LinkedIn a lot, so I’m regularly posting out there with a lot of the latest research, some of my advice, some of my experiences that I’m having with companies right now. So, you can find me. Those are the two main channels and also my website proverbialdoor.com. 

Taylorr: Sure. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. We’ll make sure all of those links are in the show notes. Everybody listening, go give Moeed a follow, follow him around the internet, learn from him. He’s a credible wealth of knowledge, I got a chance to watch a few of the YouTube videos and they are amazing. So, I’ll put some links in the show notes and hey, if you liked this episode, don’t forget to like it, rate it, subscribe to it and if you want more awesome resources like this, go to speakerflow.com/resources. 

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