S. 3 Ep. 2 – Inclusivity Is A Verb – Not A Noun

Intro: You know those moments when you’re doing what you love in your business. Maybe it’s standing on stage or creating content, whatever it is, you’re totally immersed, and time just seems to slip by. This is called the flow state. At Speaker Flow, we’re obsessed with how to get you there more often. Each week we’re joined by a new expert where we share stories, strategies, and systems to help craft a business you love. Welcome to Technically Speaking.

Taylorr: And we made it. Look at us go, another podcast episode starting. Jackie, it is awesome to have you on the show. Welcome to Technically Speaking.

Jackie: Thank you, Taylorr. Thank you, Austin. Great to be here.

Austin: Ah, man. So great to have you. I love so much that we’re in a phase of humanity where we can be connected with people across the world. We get access to you, Jackie, you’re an ocean away from us, over in England, and we still get to do this. It’s amazing.

Jackie: Yeah.

Austin: So, thank you for joining us from across the ocean.

Jackie: My pleasure, thank you for hosting me across the pond. Yeah, well, good.

Taylorr: For sure. A lot easier than flying across, that’s for sure.

Jackie: Yeah, right.

Austin: That’s true. Yeah.

Taylorr: Definitely. So, Jackie, we saw recently you attended the Global Speaker Summit. It was in Dublin this year, right? How was that?

Jackie: It was. It was incredible. Yeah. And you, probably, know the Global Speaker Summit happens once every two years.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Jackie: In a, kind of, it’s a bit like the Eurovision Song contest, which might not mean too much to you folks in the US, but where, basically, countries bid for, we want to host it, we want to host it. And this year it was Dublin and the PSA, or Professional Speakers Association UKI that won the bid. And so, we hosted in Dublin, and it was an amazing experience, there were a couple of hundred people there, so not huge numbers, but some wonderful, wonderful people there. Some, kind of, really tenured speakers who were very well-known across the country, well, across the world, not just the country. 

And also, some new people on the horizon, new members from, specifically, PSAUKI, who are just coming into the speaking world and wanting to see what all of the fuss is about, really. So, we had a lot of fun, great time, and were entertained by some wonderful speakers. Yeah.

Austin: Oh.

Taylorr: That’s awesome.

Austin: Man, that’s amazing. Such a cool bunch of people there. We have lots of respect. We were hoping to go this year. We didn’t, but we will, maybe, next time. I think next year in 2024, I guess it’d be, is Bali. And.

Jackie: It is.

Austin: That’s a bucket list item for me.

Taylorr: Yeah, that’s for sure. Yeah.

Austin: I think we’re going to check a bucket list item off while I’m out there.

Jackie: I would, yeah. The last one that was hosted, they, actually, ended up having to make a plan B. In fact, they renamed it the Plan B Summit. It’s a bit of a long story, but it was hosted over in Namibia, and I was fortunate enough to go and, actually, spoke over there as well, which was, again, an amazing experience. But literally, it happened just before the world closed down with Covid. So, an incredible place to visit, again, another wonderful experience, but right on the cusp of a real, I guess, well, pandemic, the global disaster that occurred. 

And then, of course, Dublin just now, has been the, okay, we’re out of the other side, we’re just about okay getting in the room with lots of people. And I think by the time we get to Bali, people will be just, I hope, at least, learning to live with this thing called Covid that’s just going to be here to stay, and we manage it, hopefully, well. And we’re ready to get together again in Asia and down in Bali. Fantastic, can’t wait.

Austin: It’s going to be so cool.

Taylorr: Yeah, just so fun.

Austin: Are you going to be there? Are we going to see you?

Jackie: Am I going to be there? Did you just ask that?

Taylorr: Of course, she’s going to be there.

Austin: Question answered.

Jackie: I’ll tell you what, if I am still living and breathing, as I very much hope I will be; then, absolutely, I’m going to be there. I’ve already reserved my ticket, so, yeah, for sure.

Austin: Oh, amazing.

Taylorr: Heck, yeah.

Austin: It’ll be great to see you in 3D.

Taylorr: Austin, we have to get on that bandwagon.

Austin: Yeah, we will be there. You’re hearing it here first, folks. We’re making the promise. We’ll be in Bali.

Taylorr: That’s right, come hang out.

Austin: Yeah. So, we’re super excited for this episode, and thank you again for joining us. We did a little bit of digging into you and your background and we saw something interesting, you spent some time, as a young person, I think 12 years old, something like that, selling antiques at your parents’ market or something. So, steer me, from the rocks if I’m wrong here, but I’m curious, A, just about that experience, generally speaking, and also, B, how that experience may have impacted or translated into you running your business now?

Jackie: Wow, that’s a great question, actually, to ask. And, yeah, I’m the only child of my parents, who were market traders for several years, actually, when I was growing up. Look, market traders, they just have such work ethic, right? You’re up crazy o’clock in all weathers. You’re often outside, so some of the markets, I don’t know how it works with you, but, certainly, some of the markets are indoors, some of the markets are outdoor and they worked both, obviously, not at the same time, but over the years, they worked different markets, and they would sell different things and maybe antiques and so on. 

And, of course, because I was the only child, even at, I talk about, yeah, 12, but, actually, it, probably, started around 10 or 11, where I couldn’t be left at home alone, right? So, I’m not Macaulay Culkin. So, I had to.

Taylorr: What a great reference. Heck, yeah. Home alone, anybody?

Jackie: Absolutely. But, anyway, so I couldn’t be left home, so I needed to go along with them, right? This is in way before the day, showing my age, way before the days of smartphones or whatever. You had nothing to do, right? So, you either, kind of, read a book or you just sat and watched, right? And I sat and watched, and the amazing things, I think I picked up on, I learned so much through osmosis, right? And this is a big thing that I say a lot in life, generally, is we copy what we see every day. And that, I think, is something that we should really hold-on to, and it’s how we learn behavior. It’s how we learn language. 

It very much links to the DE & I space that I work within now, but also, I think just life and leadership, generally. I learned so much from osmosis, really, just from watching my parents, the two, actually, quite different people, but gel together as a beautiful dynamic. How they got themselves, kind of, zoned in and ready for the day ahead and, kind of, manage their own emotional state at any given moment in time. They might have been feeling a bit [makes sound – 6:58] when they woke at silly o’clock, but, actually, they knew that no one’s going to buy from them if they’re just looking miserable. So, it’s getting themselves tuned up, if you like.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Jackie: Engaging with different people. Being the first to smile. I always say, if you can be the first to smile. I think it taught me so much in terms of behavior, but also in terms of work ethic and discipline. So that’s quite a long-winded response. But, yeah, I spent many years, really, sitting alongside and then working alongside my parents in those early years, really, as a young person in the world. And it taught me a lot. You don’t realize it at the time, right? But you realize it afterward, and there are some good lessons learned there.

Austin: For sure.

Jackie: Wow, yeah, I can only imagine the learning through osmosis. So, I think you’ve, probably, already just alluded to this, but were you aware of that learning when you were there with your parents? Were you trying to absorb that in or was that all hindsight?

Jackie: Very much hindsight, I think. At the time, for anybody watching on video, you’ll be able to see, but you, kind of, pull these faces, I don’t want to go. So, I didn’t want to get up at that time of the morning, I certainly didn’t want to go and sit and watch while they, and antiques, are you kidding? I’m 10, 11, whatever. It wasn’t very cool. But it was how my parents earned their living, right? 

So, you just got with the program, as it were. And, yeah, it is very much about hindsight, and I think there’s been a lot of lessons that I, and I’m sure many of us, really, we realize later on in our lives that have been instrumental in shaping us and maybe the paths that we choose to take in our lives, that we never would put that together early on in our lives, right? Too young to really realize, I guess.

Taylorr: Yeah, no, it’s crazy how life happens like that. You just look back and it just feels like it was all meant to be in some way, when, really, we were just trying to figure it out as we were making it happen, you know?

Jackie: Yeah.

Austin: Yeah.

Jackie: Yeah.

Austin: It’s true.

Jackie: I think there’s something, isn’t there, about is this life mapped out for us in some way, you know? You find that you’re taken in different directions and it’s almost like where I am right now is exactly where I’m supposed to be right now. And is that forever? Who knows, right? Let’s just run with it while it’s there.

Austin: Yeah, it’s true. Life is weird like that, sometimes it feels so random, I guess. But then, yeah, looking back on things, it’s like, man, it’s almost like they were steppingstones being put in front of me. And maybe that’s just human beings’ innate ability to spot patterns. I don’t know about that, but I do know that if you look back, definitely every action that you took led to where you’re at right now. And if you’re appreciative of where you’re at right now, you have to appreciate the places that you’ve been; good, bad and otherwise.

Jackie: Right. For sure.

Austin: So, from that experience, obviously there are some gaps in the story here, but you ended up in a career based around learning and development initially, right? And so, I’m curious to hear a little bit about that transition, but I’m also interested about, you said a couple of times now, this learning through osmosis. So, for somebody that’s truly a learning and development expert, is that a thing? Is that a real thing that can happen by just observing you’re, sort of, even if it’s unintentionally, learning, building skill sets? How true is that statement, I guess is what I’m asking?

Jackie: Yeah. Another great question. Yeah, you’re right. My professional work, kind of, led me into learning and development, I was fascinated by it. I guess I got a kick out of helping people learn and have those light bulb moments. That’s really where it started. But, yeah, can we learn through osmosis? I would ask anyone that has a baby or has ever been a baby. Tell me what training course you went on to learn to walk, tell me what books you read or what podcast you listened to. Or what Ted Talks you watched to help you learn to walk, right? You get up, you fall over, you get up again. 

So, is that statement that I make based on any, kind of, scientific knowledge that I have? Absolutely not. Is it, on the other hand, based on just what I see every day and how when I look at, if you want to take it from the baby’s crawling and walking into the world of business and organizations who, kind of, have an organizational workforce who, ultimately, in some way, shape or form represent the leadership of that organization. And then ask me again if you can learn through osmosis, because I think that we just do, it’s almost like if we have a toxic leader, then we feel uncomfortable with that. 

But it is true to say, we may take on some of that toxicity ourselves and, actually, feed that on to the next level, which is why we hear about the bullied become the bully. Bullies often, not always, but sometimes. So, there is something in there about that whole learned behavior piece, isn’t there? Yeah.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Austin: Definitely, yes.

Taylorr: I haven’t thought about it like that. That was pretty paradigm shifting, so thanks for breaking that down. So, you go from learning and development in this profession, and then we read in 2018, correct me if I’m wrong. You, kind of, segued that into your personal brand, so to speak, and telling your story about bullying and exclusion, what was the handoff there? What led you to jump into that world full force?

Jackie: Well, I blame, wholeheartedly, the Professional Speaking Association of UK and Ireland for that one.

Austin: Ooh, shots fired.

Taylorr: Yeah, that’s right. Shots fired. Listen here PSA.

Jackie: Abssolutely, seriously. Yeah.

Taylorr: Because you got the bug.

Jackie: Yeah. I can’t remember the explicit personal conversation that led me to go along to the PSA, but I’d been working in learning and development for a little while and somebody had a conversation with me, I can’t explicitly remember, as I said. They said you should go along to the Professional Speaking Association, check it out. And like they have around the world, you’ll have a chapter; we call them regions here in the UK. So, I went along to my local regions meeting and met up with this great, diverse bunch of people, right? And I say diverse, meaning so many different things around diversity of thinking as well as diversity of identity. 

It felt comfortable, it felt nice, I know nice is a bit of a nothing word, but it just felt okay. And I was, somebody said, as we do in the speaking world, what do you speak about? I didn’t really know what I spoke about. My background was as a recruitment consultant, and I’d been a recruiter for around 15 years. Then I moved into learning and development and from there started my own organization, my own business, right? So, that’s where it got to. 

So, recruitment was a big part of, actually, the market sectors I was supporting. And I wrote a book called The Smartass Recruiter. It is no longer available for sale, because it doesn’t really represent me anymore, I don’t do a lot with recruiters directly now, but also a lot of the techniques and the methodologies are a little outdated. But at that time, I was talking about this, particular, book, and so I was talking about goals and goal setting and so on.

And we have, I don’t know what other speaking associations do around the world, but in the UK, we have the opportunity to do a bit of a, sort of, 5, 10-minute showcase, right? We call them showcases. For newer speakers or speakers that are testing out some new material to, literally, showcase, to present to their peers, get some feedback and make adjustments or do whatever with that. So, I did this presentation about being a smartass recruiter and what all of that meant. And I was told afterward that, actually, I had a gift when it came to speaking, but that the topic was a bit meh. And, in fact, I was asked, have you got anything else you can talk about? And I said, well, I suppose I could talk about my own story.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Jackie: And it’s a bit of a long story short now, because I’m going on about it. But I changed tack, I created a very short showcase about that journey of, yes, bullying and exclusion and then, kind of, being the true me as it were. And my world, kind of, changed; now, I know that sounds a little bit dramatic, not, kind of, in a, aaah, spiritual, kind of, moment, but just something changed in that, once again, referencing what I said earlier, when you’re exactly where you need to be at that moment in time, and I felt things are coming together here and I feel like I’m in the right place. 

So, I shared that. That then led me into developing more with the Professional Speaking Association UKI. I then did a TEDx talk in October 2018, and that led me, basically, to become somebody that’s now become quite sought after as a DE & I authority.

Austin: Wow. Man, it’s such a cool journey. I love that. It something that started almost with a merging of skill sets for you, because I’m sure that learning development background that you carried with you was instrumental in being able to understand how to communicate complex ideas and make things simple for people. And then you also have this personal journey that’s led you to these ideas’ worth spreading to take Tedx’s language, right? And so, you really brought those together in a spur of the moment opportunity, probably an oversimplification of that, and that then led to your future. 

So, I guess it’s interesting to me how sometimes our unintentional choices lead to an intentional future that we didn’t even know was possible until we took the leap.

Jackie: Right, that’s so near.

Austin: That’s inspiring.

Jackie: Super true. And it was so funny, because when I did the TEDx talk, which, kind of, came about, again, doesn’t matter how it came about, but it was a bit of a random, quite swift, there’s going to be a TEDx in four weeks, do you want to go for it? It’s like, oh, okay. Right. So, that was, kind of, an interesting thing in itself. But when I’d done it, and it then was being showcased, and, of course, you brag about it, you have bragging rights on social. 

And somebody messaged me who I had taught in recruitment in my recruitment world several years before; they messaged me and said, wow, you did it. You said you wanted to do it, it was on your bucket list, and you’ve done it. And I went back and said, what do you mean I said I wanted to do it? And they said, yeah, I distinctly remember you always saying you wanted to do a TEDx talk. And I had forgotten that just from years before. 

But it’s interesting. I don’t know, is there something when we put these things out there, I’m not too into that, but I do think there’s something about, you put it out there and then you start taking even those really small steps toward achieving it. It’s interesting how sometimes you even forget you did it, right? So, yeah, it’s a pretty amazing story.

Austin: That’s so cool. Oh my gosh. Taylorr and I are also very skeptical people, I guess, to put it, sort of, nicely. And so, yeah, the whole idea of putting stuff and it comes back, I don’t know, but I definitely do see that happen at times, and I don’t know why, necessarily. But something that I did hear you say that I think is, actually, an important thing and also a character trait about you that is admirable, but the willingness to just take action and to just take a couple of steps, right? Because what you said there wasn’t just, I had the idea to do TEDx and then I sat on my couch for three years and then somebody invited me. 

It was like, I had the idea and took a little action and then that leads to new opportunities and then suddenly down the road it segued into the thing that you wanted. So, I have no idea if there’s a real reason as to why that happened, but I do know that being intentional and taking intentional actions about that leads to some pretty amazing things.

Jackie: And that’s the key, isn’t it.

Austin: You’ve done that.

Jackie: Right. That is the key. We can’t, to quote law of attraction and all of that, we can’t just sit there and say, hey, I want to make a million dollars or whatever, and then suddenly it miraculously falls from the sky. You’re right, nothing happens without taking that action. So, yeah, absolutely, there we go. But an interesting journey it was.

Austin: That’s like, oh, a whole other conversation for us to have. Another day.

Taylorr: That’s right. Yeah, another day. That’s right.

Austin: So, over time, it seems like you’ve gotten more and more, sort of, distilled down, in terms of what it is that you’re, actually, out there doing and helping with people. And one of the things we saw is that you wrote a book, The Little Book of Belonging, I think, right? Yeah. Tell us about that. And I’d also love to hear a couple of the habits that you love most from that book, if you’d be willing to share?

Jackie: Of course. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, thank you. The Little Book of Belonging, I mentioned already that I’d had a go at writing a book, and the book wasn’t terrible, but this was a different idea. And it came about through the pandemic when I thought, I would really love it if people just took small steps to being a bit more inclusive. And just like we’ve been talking about anything, right? It’s often just those small, consistent steps that we take that help us become good at something or help make those sustained changes. 

And so, I wanted to put a book together that really sits on the desk, and then it has a reflection, and it has a question to challenge you each week. And so, it’s called The Little Book of Belonging, it’s your weekly guide to inclusive habits. And without giving all the secrets away, I, kind of, have a framework of about 12 key behaviors. Behaviors that we would recognize because they come about in our daily lives anyway. But these behaviors are, the way I use them, are very focused toward becoming more equitable and inclusive in the diverse world that we’re in. So, to give you a sneak peek then, I’ll just grab it off of my back shelf for those people that are.

Taylorr: Yes.

Jackie: Just on audio, but anybody that’s on video, there it is.

Austin: Yay.

Jackie: Yeah, it’s cool, isn’t it? It’s nice.

Taylorr: Wow, look at that.

Jackie: And I wanted something that was also nice quality and blah, blah, blah. It’s like QVC right now, buy my book, everybody. So, it is a book that, I think can challenge people, actually, in many ways, because inclusion work is, it can be challenging and it can be challenging our ingrained biases, belief systems, et cetera, et cetera. So, there are lots of things. So, one of the behaviors, for example, is understanding, right? So, we know what that means, right? So, this is just using that but in the context of DE & I or sometimes called DI & B over in the US, diversity, inclusion and belonging. 

This quote here says, peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. So, nice quote, nice little photograph, and on the back then, it says. Let’s have a look. When did I last take time to sit with a friend or colleague to understand their values? So, it’s just one of those that is getting people thinking, hmm, well, as you both just did, right? I just saw you there, Austin, go, Hmm. And it’s like, yeah, maybe I haven’t, or maybe I’ve never done that, right? 

And we know, don’t we, that we have a lot of organizations that we say, what are your values? What are your organizational values? And they have to quickly jump on and take a look at the website, or they have to look nervously at their colleagues hoping that they can remember them or whatever. And so, if we’re not always clear about corporate values, we’re, probably, not, also, always clear about personal core values, right? And yet when we think about something as deep as values, it does go deep. And our values will drive our thinking and our behaviors. And inclusion, really, when you think about it, it is all about taking action, but with purpose. 

And, Austin, I know that you had referenced my, before recording, you referenced the map I have, I think you did as well, Taylorr, actually, the map I have on the back wall.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Jackie: It is a color map of the world for those on audio. And I have it there for a metaphorical reference to say, we all have our own unique map of the world. And that is made up of our identity, our background, our experiences, our heritage, our culture, and our values and belief systems. And, really, by recognizing that the way I see the world is just that, it doesn’t make it the right way. It certainly isn’t the only way. It doesn’t mean I’m right about everything. Of course not. And it doesn’t even make it true, my interpretation of the world, it’s just my interpretation, in the same way we all have one. 

If we are going to, I guess, peacefully exist, work with one another, et cetera, and influence people, given we’re talking to the speaking community here. If we’re going to influence people, then we do need to understand a bit deeper than surface-level identity, but more around what drives people, in order that we can appeal to those people to influence change. So, that’s just.

Taylorr: Wow, I love that.

Jackie: A snippet of the book.

Taylorr: Yes.

Austin: I’m getting a copy.

Taylorr: Definitely have great, yeah, for sure. Immediately. So, we’ve had several conversations on our show about inclusion, belonging, DE & I, DI & B for some. It seems, after all those conversations, I’m by no means an expert here, it doesn’t seem like there’s really an end state to being like, I am inclusive. It seems like it’s almost to the story of before, it’s almost like it’s an iterative type of process, it’s like being aware of the people you’re communicating to and having understanding, and it’s like a practice of sorts. 

And so, one; am I going in the right direction there? And two, from your perspective, Jackie, what does a successful person practicing inclusion look like to you? How do you know when, not when you’ve made it, but when you’re making the right strides, as a human being, to be more inclusive and practicing belonging?

Jackie: Gosh, how long have you got? Well, I think the first thing to say is, I believe that, yes, you’re absolutely on the right track with your understanding. So, for me, inclusion is like, it’s a verb and not a noun. So, it is all about that doing. And I believe that we get all of the different definitions of all of these things, but, ultimately, diversity exists anywhere, right? And it’s important, by the way, but it’s there, it’s just a fact, right? But it is the equity. Some people say quality, but I do prefer equity, it’s subtly different. But it’s the equity and in the inclusion that we need to work at. 

Yes, you’re on the right track, that it’s iterative and it evolves, and it continues and it’s never ending, really. Because I work in this space and I don’t know everything there is to know, right? Spoiler alert. Because how can I possibly know everything there is to know? Because just like everybody else in the world, I have my own map of the world, and there may be elements that through my experience, my values, my identity, my belief systems, et cetera, that I have a deeper level of understanding of, but there are others, because, again, of all those factors that I couldn’t possibly know. 

I can have a compassion for and an empathy for, but I can’t have a knowledge of, I cannot know what it’s like to have a certain identity, right? I’m not going to mention any, because it’s not like inclusion top trumps here. Everybody’s identity matters and it is important that we work to create equality with all of those. In terms of then, how does an inclusive person act? I think, again, there’s a lot we could say around this, and you can already tell, fellas, that I can talk. I’ll try and keep it reasonably brief for you.

But I think one of the things is somebody that is on the right track is, actually, open to saying, I don’t know. And being comfortable with, I don’t know. I think so often in business, if I’m honest, a little bit in the speaking world, we’re, kind of, expected to be these inspirational people who are going to change the world. And we do. I think it’s important to say we do. But we still can’t know everything. And so, as I’ve just said, I’m in this space and I don’t know everything there is to know, so let’s at least start there with not trying to, kind of, suggest you know everything. 

And then the second thing, I think, is to be open-minded and curious. I really believe you don’t have to agree with everybody; somebody’s life choices, lifestyle, parts of their identity, you don’t have to agree in order to respect. And respect, I think, is such a critical part of this work. And, perhaps, with that deeper, the more open-minded we are, of course, the more we approach something from a place of, okay, I’m open, I’m curious and I’m going to be respectful. That’s, kind of, what I’m going to say to myself. 

Now, tell me more about you and what you need. And maybe it’s just like other areas of life, where you’re just focused on putting other people’s needs before your own, to a degree, or on a par, maybe. But you’re focused on the other person, which is a lot like us as speakers; really, you should be focused on your audience, right? And what they take away, rather than your own ego on stage. It’s my opinion. So, maybe that doesn’t answer a lot of your question, or maybe it just gives you an insight into some of the key elements; is being a bit curious, being a bit open-minded and being okay with not knowing everything is a good place to start, Taylorr.