S. 3 Ep. 41 – 12,000 Episodes Worth Of Podcast Expertise

Intro: You know those moments when you’re doing what you love in your business, maybe it’s standing on stage or creating content, whatever it is, you’re totally immersed, and time just seems to slip-by? This is called The Flow State. At Speaker Flow, we’re obsessed with how to get you there more often. Each week we’re joined by a new expert where we share stories, strategies, and systems to help craft a business you love. Welcome to Technically Speaking.

Taylorr: All right, now that was a success. We just ran into a roadblock getting this one started, but luckily we fixed that problem. What’s up, Gary? It is awesome to have you on the show. We are so pumped for this one.

Gary: I’m excited. It’s like I know you guys, I’ve edited so many shows and haven’t ever met you face-to-face, so this is cool for me. I’m excited.

Taylorr: Yeah. Heck, yeah.

Austin: It is cool.

Taylorr: For context, everybody; Gary has been editing our show since day one. Bless his soul, those early episodes were rough. Hopefully, we’ve gotten better over time.

Gary: Yes. Yes. But I didn’t even know it was, honestly, that it was from the beginning. I should know, but I just edit so many shows, it just kind of all stacks together. But, yeah, I knew it’d been a while. Wow.

Taylorr: Yeah, absolutely.

Austin: From day one, man.

Taylorr: From day one.

Gary: Wow.

Austin: This makes this probably the most meta episode we’ve ever created, which is cool.

Taylorr: Yeah, right. How many people have brought their editors onto their own show to talk to them. That’s awesome.

Austin: I don’t know. Well-deserved too.

Taylorr: It’s so cool. For sure. Heck, yeah.

Gary: I love the show.

Taylorr: Well, I’m curious about your background, we were talking earlier, before the show a bit, and it sounds like there’s a little bit of a journey from how you got into audio editing and engineering and stuff.

Gary: Yeah.

Taylorr: And so, it also seems like it’s not really one of those things similar to Austin where one day as a kid you were like, I want to edit podcasts when I grow up. So, how did this whole thing come to be?

Gary: No, in fact, I refused to edit podcasts at one point, so it’s a funny story.

Taylorr: Oh, yeah?

Gary: Yeah, yeah. So, my previous life, I’m a corporate guy or was a corporate guy. Now, I’m very anti-corporate, but I was a corporate guy, middle management, upper middle management, operations, but lots of continuous improvement, and this will all mesh together. The continuous improvement is kind of one of my superpowers, where my entire career I ran around fixing everything everybody else messed up. You’d bring-in a new installation of something, they’re like, Hey, it’s all good. And then I’d come in a week later and go, eh, it’s not so good. And I’d refine it all, all kinds of optimization. That’s what I did. Learn processes. Subject matter experts for all kinds of things over the years. 

At some point, I accidentally got into voiceover work, different story, but I got into voiceover work. And I was doing some voiceovers for a podcast intro for a show, and the guy contacted me a week or so later and said, Hey, are you interested in editing my podcast? And I said, absolutely not. Thanks for asking. And he said, well, I have a problem. This guy that I’ve have editing it now, I’m not satisfied with the way it sounds. Can you listen to it and tell me what you think he’s doing? I said, sure, I’ll listen to it. This guy was a really great client, really cool guy. 

So, I listened to the episode and I replied to him, I said, Hey, here’s the problem. He’s doing this. Tell him to stop doing that and never do it again. Awesome. Would you like to edit my show? No. He came back like a month later or so and he said, Hey, I kicked the one guy to the curb. I got a new guy and I don’t like what he’s done either. Can you take a listen to this and let me know? I said, sure, happy to. And it was this and that and the other thing, tell him to never to do that again. Cool, thanks. Want to edit my show? No.

I’d never edited a show so I didn’t; I edit audio a lot because it’s voiceover stuff. And I was neck-deep because when I go into something that’s how I go in. So, the engineering journey and all of the processing was stuff I’d already learned. But a podcast is a big thing. So, he contacted me again and he said, listen, I really want you to edit this show. I feel like you’re the right person for it. What’s it going to cost me to edit the show? And I thought about it long and hard, and I said, you know what? X. And it wasn’t nearly enough. And I edited the show and I got part of the way through the show and I was just miserable. I didn’t know what I was doing. It was a slow, arduous process and it was terrible. 

And so, I contacted him. I said, listen, man, I’m really sorry. I want to cancel this, but take your money back, but I want to give you a list of all of the things I heard about the show, your presentation style, all of these, just a huge list of tips. I wanted to give him more than he deserved because I felt bad. And he’s like, dude, you have got to continue to edit my show, I really appreciate this. And so, he’s the guy that got me into editing podcasts. And from then it was slow and painful and I grew and got faster because going back to my background of optimization, once I sink my teeth into things, I just go and go and go. And now I’m ultra-fast and it’s another superpower that people are like, well, how long does it take you to edit this? 

And I tell them; other editors, they’re like, no way. I’m like, no, that’s what it is. Thankfully, he forced the issue. I did not dream of being an audio engineer when I was a kid. I did not ever even, honestly, listen to podcasts until about that time. That’s when I kind of got into it.

Taylorr: Wow.

Gary: Weird trip.

Austin: Wow.

Gary: And it’s turned into a ridiculous full-time career. It was a crazy side hustle for a long time where I made a ton of money.

Taylorr: I was curious about that. Yeah, was it side to the corporate thing?

Gary: Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was a cool.

Taylorr: So, how long before you realized, I’m going to do this full tilt? What was that process like? Because you went from I’m not touching this to now you’re doing it as a career. So, what was that transition?

Gary: Yeah, the problem is, I’m in the corporate world, successful management, making a good living; never really was a great fit in corporate America because I challenged everything and it was just, the things that made me not a great employee were also the things that made me a great employee. I pushed hard and got things done; I was a little bit of Mr. Wolf, the cleaner. But at the same time, people got their toes stepped on and a little hurt. It’s hard to imagine after you’ve done that for so long, because I’m a little older. So, we didn’t have the internet to transition careers. 

So, not even mid-career, back half of my career, thinking how can I possibly transition out? I have a side hustle and I was making good money with the side hustle, but it still wasn’t full-time corporate, upper middle management money. So, it was tough. It was tough to make that decision, but I finally got some momentum, COVID hit and it was just like, okay, staying home full-time. And so, been completely corporate free for over three and a half years now, which is.

Taylorr: Wow.

Gary: A great place to be.

Austin: Wow. Congratulations.

Gary: Yeah, thanks.

Taylorr: That must’ve been actually interesting; it’s like similar timing to when we got started, right? With the show like, well, I think we are three and a half years-ish. We must have just caught you right as you were getting rolling.

Gary: Probably. Probably so.

Taylorr: That’s crazy.

Gary: Yeah. Guess so.

Austin: Dang, we’re lucky. I love it.

Taylorr: For sure.

Gary: Man, it’s been a great ride. I know everybody that listens to your show, at least the majority of them are probably people who work for themselves or at least aspire to work for themselves. And there’s no greater pleasure. I love my company culture.

Taylorr: Yeah. Ain’t that the truth.

Austin: Yeah. Seriously.

Gary: It’s awesome.

Austin: So, what are some of the advantages that you’ve found have come from this skillset, outside of you being able to make it a career, obviously?

Gary: Advantages. Just working at home is unbelievable, I have a kid, he’s 11. So, I get up in the morning, I make him breakfast, I take him to school, I pick him up every day. I can do that because I work from home. I’m flexible. The flexibility is just incredible. Now, do I work sometimes at 11 o’clock at night? Sure. But I can decide when I want to do that. But I also think, one thing I really love about podcasting and what I’ve done is, and this is really interesting because if you look at me, I’m a middle-aged white guy with a law enforcement haircut, right? 

And we can cut this if you think it’s going to offend people. But I have the craziest catalog of diversity when it comes to shows that I edit for. And so, I have been exposed to so many different views on everything from natural childbirth, Southeast Asian abolitionists, you name it, every social issue, every different walk of life. Nobody cares who their editor is as long as they do a good job. And so, I have listened to so many interesting topics and so many really genuinely cool people. I’m international. I edit shows for people in Australia, Ireland, UK, just all over. 

So, every day is something different. And I have a lot of different shows; some of them are similar from show to show, from episode to episode. But the stuff I get to hear and listen to and the stories and the people are all so good. I can count on one hand how many people I’ve worked with who have had a podcast, and this is a weird thing, I don’t know, maybe you think about this, but there really aren’t many bad people that have podcasts. It’s kind of a weird thing. There are all people who want to help, teach, express some idea. And those are just usually good people.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Gary: Very rarely have I had interactions with someone and I’m like, that guy’s a jerk or whatever. It’s just a couple, but not many.

Taylorr: For sure.

Gary: So, great community, fun, good times.

Taylorr: Heck, yeah.

Austin: I like that.

Taylorr: That’s why we fell in love with the speaking industry, similar idea. Not many people get up onstage who don’t want to help and teach and inspire and all of that stuff. So, I could see that directly translating to the podcast world too, since it’s really, we’re in the same category, thought leadership as a whole.

Gary: Yeah. Helpful people.

Taylorr: I think something I’m curious about, and I don’t know if this necessarily needs to be a yes or no answer, but we see it all of the time. People get ambitious about starting a podcast. How many shows, just before I get into my question, how many shows have you seen come and go, in a relatively short amount of time? Let’s call it.

Gary: Hundreds.

Taylorr: 90 days or something.

Gary: Oh, 90 days. That’s tough to put a figure on, but I can tell you over a few years, hundreds.

Taylorr: Hundreds, yeah.

Gary: It comes and goes.

Taylorr: They fall off, right? Yeah.

Gary: Yeah, yeah. A lot. Tons. Tons.

Taylorr: Right. Well, they’re a lot of work.

Gary: Yeah, they are. And that’s what people find out is that it’s a lot of work. It’s a commitment.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Gary: Now, there are things you can do to simplify it.

Taylorr: I was curious about that. If somebody wanted to DIY a podcast, and maybe even the editing, initially; as they get their feet under them, is that possible? And if so, what would your recommendations be?

Gary: It’s entirely possible. But the question they have to ask themselves is why they want to DIY. There are two reasons you DIY, to me, and I’ll categorize this and people can argue about it, but there are really two reasons. One is you’re really interested in doing it yourself because you think it’ll be fun, cool, creative process. Do a little audio engineering, video editing. Ooh, good times. Then you find out it’s real work, but you may still enjoy it. And then there are people who just don’t have the budget for it and they want to shoestring it and they want to get something up and going. Those are both great reasons to decide how you want to do it. But you can definitely DIY a show. I think what I would recommend is if you want to DIY it, I would sort of DIY it. 

And what I mean by that is, contact someone who can help you DIY it, get a consult from someone who can help steer you in the right way to do it, because it’s different for everybody. This is the curse of the internet, Facebook groups, discord groups and YouTube, is that everybody will prescribe one or two patterns or processes for how to launch your podcast. And that is nonsense. Every show is completely different. The needs of each individual is completely different, and when someone comes to me for a consult, I just start asking questions because until I ask about six layers of questions, I don’t know how to help that person the best. 

And the answer to the question for you will be different than for somebody else most of the time because your budget’s different. What you want to achieve is different, your tech level is different, your space acoustically is different. Your goal for the show is different. There are a lot of things to weigh on it. So, you can DIY it, you can simplify it. You can get Audacity and record your own show. You can record on GarageBand or Mac Users. I think they all come with GarageBand, you can record on there. There are tech issues; you have to wade through that process. 

When it comes to recording on your own, and this is one of the number one things; everybody likes to talk about microphones. And this is one of the reasons it’s important to consult with somebody who knows some things. I probably have 25 microphones. The reason I have 25, there are a couple of reasons. One is I’m a professional voiceover person. This is a professional microphone. This is a $600 microphone. It’s not my good mic. My good mic is in this booth next to me. And then there’s this other really good mic. But the majority of the microphones that I have are what I would consider podcast grade, middle of the road microphones, because I work with people who have all of those microphones, so I want to understand those microphones. 

There are all kinds of recommendations for terrible microphones. Cheap, budget, but there are some really good budget microphones. I can give you a great $25 microphone. But there are also 50 that are garbage at $25. But if you know the difference, that’s the secret. That’s the power of the consult. If you get a consult with somebody who can just walk you through the first handful of steps, selecting the right microphone, deciding what device you want to record on and helping you find the right space. And then fourth is how to use the microphone, because that’s the number one thing is actual microphone technique. Most people are blown away how much better they sound when their microphone technique is properly engaged. So, I don’t know if that answers your question exactly.

Gary: Yeah, that was awesome.

Austin: I’d love for you to, can you expand a little bit on some of the other common tools that people would need to be familiar with, even if they weren’t necessarily editing, but maybe that too, but to be able to run a show. Microphone seems like the thing that everybody immediately jumps to, as you said, but there is probably lots of other stuff to consider, right?

Gary: There is, your microphone’s important, it’s not the most important thing by a long shot. Knowing how to use the microphone and being in the proper space are two of the most important things. So, if you’re in a room that is, like Austin’s room doesn’t look like it’s really very acoustically-treated. I can hear the room every time you talk. And what I mean by that is the room tone, the reverberation a little bit of hum, there’s some resonance. I can hear those. If you have a properly acoustically-treated room, you don’t hear those. The way you mitigate that is by the right microphone selection and using the microphone correctly, having it engaged correctly. The closer you are to your microphone, the less of that room is picked up because your signal to noise ratio gets really big. I’m getting real nerdy here, but it’s just a clarity thing. 

Microphone is not number one, using it is number one. And the other thing that I think is a common mistake is the space that people are in. If I had a dollar for every time I moved somebody out of their home office into their living room, I could probably take us all to Arby’s, which is pretty expensive these days. It’s $87 for us to eat at Arby’s, right? For three of us to, I’m going to go big. I’m getting mozzarella sticks, but they get in their office and it’s just this common thing. You have this nice office at home, you’re working from home maybe a lot, so you make it nice and you want to be in there, it feels comfortable. The worst room in the house next to the bathroom to try to record in because there’s nothing in there that reflects or absorbs or diffuses. It’s all reflections. Diffuse or absorb anything, it’s just hard walls, resilient surfaces, hard desk tops. That becomes a challenge.

 So, I move people, just move them. Hey, just go to your living room. Couches, curtains, pictures, bookcases, that stuff all diffuses sound, so you don’t get room reverb. And you can tell that in your daily life, and this is a weird example. If you go into your bathroom, if you have a shower curtain, this is so ridiculous. If you have the shower curtain, go in there with the curtain closed and clap your hands, it’s going to sound terrible. Then open the curtain and clap your hands. It’s just a shower curtain. But even just a simple shower curtain makes a huge difference in how much reverb there is in a room. So, you take that and apply it to a living room, and it’s couches, drapes, all of the other stuff. Now, you have a much better position to record in.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Gary: So, the question was the top things, right? With microphones, you have to have something to record into. So, some device, a computer or a tablet, a piece of software on there like GarageBand or Audacity. There are some other tools too. These days, it seems like every week something new pops up. A lot of people record in Descript or they’ll solo record in Zoom or Zencastr. They’ll solo record in Riverside and then they still just get all of the files downloaded from there so they have good high-quality files. And then they’ll send them to someone like me. Or they can take them and put them into Audacity or GarageBand that are both free and manipulate the files, edit what they need to. 

So, you have to have those, you have to have a way to get your microphone into the software. So, depending on the microphone, if it’s a USB microphone, you just plug it in and go. If it’s an XLR microphone, then you have to have an interface or a mixer, it adds a little bit of complexity, which to be honest, isn’t necessary for almost anybody. There are just very few people that need that complexity at all. It causes problems more than anything. That answer your question?

Taylorr: Yeah.

Austin: Yeah. And then some.

Taylorr: Good rundown, for sure. Very thorough.

Austin: I think that this probably touches on something too, that this is a craft just like anything else and I’m curious from your perspective, where does the art of what you do and the science of what you do converge together to make an awesome show?

Gary: As an editor, there’s a lot that goes on with shaping the way a show sounds and the way a show is heard. So, I do things and I know other people, some editors do, some don’t. This is the sign of a better editor, okay? I’ll just put it out there, is when there are three of us on there and we’re all talking at once, something happens and we make a comment and everybody’s laughing, you can’t hear any of that. It’s all competing with itself. So, it’s like, I don’t know what Austin said or what Taylorr said, something was funny. We’re all laughing. What just happened? We all know as the people that were on the show, because we can see it and hear it. But as a listener, it’s like, what just happened? What? What Was that? I can cut that and move it apart. And this is the art. This is a little bit of the art. Is cutting it and moving all of those voices around to give each one of them a space to be heard.

Austin: Whoa.

Gary: So that it doesn’t exactly sound like it did in real life, but the context is the same. And the listener gets to experience that context. Instead of going, what? What just happened?

Taylorr: My head is exploding. That’s crazy.

Austin: That’s wild.

Taylorr: That’s so nuanced.

Gary: Right? And this is things people don’t think about. I hear people, oh, just keep it natural. Natural sucks. Lava’s natural. It hurts. Poison is natural. Uranium’s natural. It’s bad. Natural makes me mad. It’s okay for some things. This lighting is not natural. I look better with it than I do in natural light.

Taylorr: Natural is just the short-term phrase for I don’t want to pay for a lot of anything.

Gary: Yes. It’s a catchall phrase for I prefer mediocrity.

Austin: Yeah. Right?

Gary: Yeah.

Austin: Oh, this is so funny.

Gary: So, that’s a piece of art where I’m listening to the show; now, what I don’t ever do, personally, is I never listen to your show and decide what your listeners hear in context. That’s not me. I would never presume to know what somebody else’s listenership wants to hear or needs to hear. I just want to make sure they hear it the best they can, and as it was intended. That’s the art of it is, that interpretation. Pacing means a lot. Sometimes somebody will ask a question and there needs to be a pause. It’s a big question. And the person doesn’t know how to respond or they’ll answer something, they’ll land, so they’ll stick the landing and some people will just edit out all of these spaces and make it, they want to make it as fast as possible so it’s moving. 

But if you stick the landing on something and you make just a real salient point. Give it some breath, man. They need to process that. Your listeners need to go, oh, he just said, wow. So, you give it a little time. There’s some art in that, knowing what that pacing needs to be. It’s a little bit of a storytelling.

Taylorr: Wow.

Gary: There’s just some nerdy stuff too. It’s just the value ratio is a real thing. And you guys cater to professionals. And professionals, I’m just going to say it, I struggle when people are professional and they can’t speak well. I hear it all of the time. And the worst are government people. If I hear one more person say that they were on the Senate Oversight Committee for something and they can’t talk at all, I’m just like, are you kidding me? I don’t trust anything you say. You said 87 words. 24 of them meant something. I cut all of the rest out.

Taylorr: It’s really fluffed up, yeah.

Gary: Yeah. Well, it’s not even fluffed. They literally stutter, stammer, restart. They can’t.

Taylorr: Oh, I see what you mean.

Gary: Yeah, they can’t maintain a cogent train of thought and express an opinion about something. It’s bothersome to me as a listener. I need to be able to trust you and there’s some credibility in hitting it right, and nailing it and sticking the landing. That’s not as scientific, it’s just removing the restarts and the stumbles so that they sound like they; now, there are some people that’ll say, well, you made someone sound better than they are. Yes, I did. Sometimes it bothers me because if I edit someone and I make them sound like a rockstar, and then they say, well, yeah, I was just on Technically Speaking, here’s my show. And they go, oh, yeah, that guy sounds great. But then they don’t edit. They’re like, whoa, what happened? He shanked it. He didn’t shank it.

Austin: Right.

Taylorr: Fascinating.

Gary: You have to let them know that you’re going to edit them. This is one of my favorite things. I routinely have people that say, Hey, I just want you to know. And I’ll hear them. I’ll hear it on the show. They’ll be doing an interview and somebody will really be struggling and they’ll stop and they’ll say, Hey, listen, remember, we can redo all of this. We have an editor. He’ll make you look as good as he can. If you need to restart, take a break. It’s all cool. And you can hear, they just go, phew. That weight just comes off because they no longer have to worry about being judged.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Gary: Because someone spent a little money to help them feel free.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Austin: Yeah.

Gary: Sounds a little dramatic, but.

Austin: Well, you get a better version of that person at that point.

Gary: Yes.

Taylorr: Well, and from our perspective as hosts, right? I could imagine myself, if we didn’t have you from day one, and let’s say the editing was all on us. If somebody makes a big enough mistake, in my mind, as often as they make mistakes, I’m like, God, I have to edit that out. I have to edit that out. All of that weight comes on me as the host of the show.

Gary: Yeah.

Taylorr: Whereas, we’ll be like, nah, we have Gary. You can mess up as much as you want. We got you, it’s all good.

Austin: Yeah.

Taylorr: But my mindset changes because I know a professional, you, are going to help us make that look as good.

Gary: Right.

Taylorr: And that’s not weighing on me at all. And I think that’s psychology. It’s valuable in itself to have your show edited by somebody else, but to know you can stay in your zone of genius as the host of the show and then pass the expertise off to somebody who’s more qualified.

Gary: Yes.

Taylorr: It just puts you in a different head-space as you’re actually organizing the show, I feel like.

Gary: Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent. So, my company’s name is Painless Podcasting. And that’s why, because when I got into this, my perspective is professional voice talent. And again, going back to my former life, I do everything all of the way. So, my goal was, okay, I may not have the greatest voice in the world, I may not be the best actor. I’ll never have somebody sound better or have better technical capabilities to, the things that I can’t be beaten on, I can be tied with, not beaten. So, I went deep. So, then I come into podcasting and I’m hearing all of these problems because I’m so used to fine-tuning everything to this extent. It’s like, man, I want them to sound better, not just for me, but for the world. 

And that sounds really weird probably, but I want everybody’s podcast to sound awesome. I want every listener experience to be awesome. I don’t want someone to listen to podcasts and go, I can’t listen to them, they’re terrible. They all sound awful. Because there’s a ton of great content out there. The amount of stuff that I learn and experienced every week listening to podcasts is unfathomable compared to my dad in 1987. Morning news, morning paper, go to work, come home, read the evening, it’s just all newspapers and news. This is so different than that, that I want everybody to have that opportunity and be successful.

Taylorr: Yeah.

Gary: So, that’s why I got into, when I started editing, I was like, I can help these people. Most of the stuff they’re missing are just the basics. Just the whole 80/20 thing, it’s so true and especially in podcasting and audio production, it’s just so many, just little things that don’t cost you any money, make a huge difference.

Taylorr: Heck, yeah.

Gary: Huge difference. So, that’s why I did that, because I want them to focus. I want them to be able to not stress about it, take that weight away, just focus on marketing, finding guests and doing what they enjoy.

Taylorr: Heck, yeah. One thing that I’ve been kind of pondering as we’ve been going through this, on previous shows, Austin, I think we’ve had podcast-oriented shows in the past. Am I wrong about that? Or am I losing my mind? Or just maybe hit and miss.

Austin: Dabbling.

Taylorr: Maybe some other hosts talking about their experience.

Austin: Yeah.

Taylorr: What’s interesting is you get to see podcasting at an incredible volume, right? As hosts, sure, we go and guest on some shows. To be honest, I’m not the biggest consumer of podcasts. And if I am, I have maybe one or two I resort to. So, I don’t get a lot of context necessarily for other shows out there. And see, you said what, 12,000 shows?

Gary: Yeah. Yeah.

Taylorr: In the last seven years or something? Stopped counting.

Gary: Over 12. I stopped counting.

Taylorr: So, what makes a show great?

Gary: Oh.

Taylorr: If you think about your favorite projects that you’ve worked on, you’re like, holy crap, these people have it together. What were the things that made that?

Gary: There are so many different types of shows. There was a comedy show that I listened to that was just incredible. But it didn’t last. But it was just because it was so much work for them. But they had it, they had this great chemistry, it was a fun show. And for whatever reason, they didn’t last; technically, they were doing okay. But I think the shows that I always notice when they’re really good are the shows where you learn something and it’s a combination of interesting content, but the good interviews, the process of back and forth. Okay, define it like this. 

What I don’t like in a podcast is a presentation. And I see so many people revert to this presentational style because they think that they’re at a TED Talk or they’re at a company meeting and they just really get into this formal tone about everything they do. The best ones are the conversation. It’s where I’m just listening to two people talk about something. I’m gleaning something from it, I’m learning. I feel like I know them because it’s a little more intimate and you want to hear it. You’re so interested in it, you can’t stop listening. And when you pile good audio on top of that, I listened to a show one time, somebody recommended a show. 

I wish I could remember the name of it. They said, you should check out this show, I think you might like it. I didn’t like it at all. But I probably listened to it for 40 minutes because it sounded so good. And finally, I thought, why am I listening to this? I don’t care about it. But the production value was so good I downloaded the file and checked it. I put it into my digital workstation. I was like, I have to see what’s under the hood on this thing, you know? But I just didn’t care about the content. So, people undervalue that, that there’s something about it sounding intimate that makes that personal connection land even more. If you think about it. If you think about your favorite voices in the world. People talk about Morgan Freeman.

Taylorr: Yeah, I was going to say, can you make me sound like that or?

Gary: No, no, no.

Taylorr: What are we doing here.

Gary: No. But if you think about those voices, and this is audio quality pitch. This is me preaching audio quality. If you think about those voices, the ones that just ring in your ear and you just could listen to them read the phone book. And if you close your eyes for a second and you think about that person’s voice. Then how does it sound to you? It’s usually warm, deep, intimate, sounding, clear, there’s articulation in there, it’s all of the good stuff. Nobody ever wants to sound like they’re in a bathroom. That psychology of hearing that voice, the same thing off of a podcast that you love to hear. It’s the same thing in a podcast.