John: Don't look at your photos simply as nice to have. They're not throw pillows on that chair that's sitting in the living room that no one sits on. They're actually part of the rebar and the foundation of the house. It's business infrastructure. Along with all of the other tools and all of the other pieces, it needs to be seen within that context because it does play an important role.
John: Yeah, I'm good. You could see the captain hat and the Viking hat, perfect.
Austin: That's good. That's the most important thing, actually. Why those, by the way? What's up with the Viking hat and the captain's hat?
John: The captain's hat is from a drunken night after an NSA NYC luncheon. I'll leave the names of the speakers that I was out with getting hammered with, but it was Fleet Week or something. It was Fleet Week. We were down by Battery Park. Next thing you know, a bunch of kids walked in with all these hats and they got off of some young man's head and ended up on mine and now it lives here. That is from when I worked on Maury. Maury dressed up as Flavor Flav one year for a Halloween show. And at the end of the week, there was a box in the back by the control room and I saw the hat. And I saw the clock too, and I was thinking, you know, but I stole the hat. So now it lives here.
Austin: Wow. Great stories. I love that there's lore behind the objects in your office. I feel like it should be that way.
John: Everything that's in this office has some kind of emotional meaning. The two drawings that you can't quite see that are right here, I drew them when I went to the High School of Art and Design in Manhattan and I was taking architecture as a thirteen year old, old school nineteen ninety five, ninety six, drawing these bad boys by hand, no digital back then.
Austin: Wow. You're a creative guy. Okay, so look, for the people listening that don't know you, give them a little bit of background here because I feel like you've got a bunch of different skills in a bunch of different areas, even though you've become known for one very specific thing at this point.
John: Hm. What's a good way to describe that? Well, I guess the long story short of it is I've dedicated my life and become obsessed with this idea that I want people who are experts in their sphere to be seen by those who need the most because what they do is important. So the way that I help them is through their visuals. And specifically that involves aligning the level at which they operate, which means the results, the track record, the experience you provide your people, align it with the way you present yourself visually so it gives you a fair shake when it comes down to people determining whether or not you're the first one that gets the call.
Austin: Why the visual angle specifically? Why was that the thing that caught your interest and that you became so obsessed with? It's really specific. It's an ultra specific thing to become an expert of, you know?
John: I know. Honestly, I think there's this common thing that you hear amongst the expert speaker communities where it's, we become the expert in the things we do because we are the ones that needed to hear it the most. And for the vast majority of my life, up until my mid thirties, I absolutely hated being on video in front of cameras, anything to do with capturing me in any place, doing anything. It was actually quite embarrassing. I mean, I look at photos of me when I graduated from college and from grad school, and I look absolutely miserable in every single one of them, and it upsets me now. It's funny, it actually upsets me because every person that's in those photos is no longer with us. And it's my family I'm talking about. And I think in hindsight, yeah, it was my achievement, but don't be a jackass about it. And this is an important thing and they're very proud and I'm sitting there looking like a dumbass.
John: And I think that feeling of missing out or misrepresenting myself, if I were to turn that towards a more business angle with regards to the people I serve, is, it's important to put yourself out there in a genuine way and to be who you are. And I feel like I'm helping people, especially those who are not exactly jazzed about getting in front of a camera, to become more open and be more confident in those moments, to get those images that actually help make the difference to be able to get in more conversations, to get on those stages and get more clients.
Austin: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. There's this whole subcategory of people that do this type of work that almost do it in spite of the fact that they don't want to be the person doing it. Some people do it because of ego and because they enjoy being on stage and they want the attention. And I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. It can be a good thing if it's used properly. But I think there's a lot of people that genuinely have useful information for the world, and they've been told by a lot of people for a long time, like you should be out there preaching the word about whatever it is. And so they do that. They're willing to go out there and do it, but they do it even though they don't really want to be the focus of attention.
Austin: And you find that that person has a really hard time doing sales and marketing a lot of the time because they have to be self-promotional and that isn't necessarily in their nature. So anyways, I can see how for that subset of people, having good imagery to go along with your business and pictures of yourself and so on is probably not something that they just already have. It's probably something that they need to go get from a professional because they're not somebody that's had a lot of practice making themselves look amazing on camera. You know? I would fit into that category, as you know, having done our pictures at SpeakerFlow.
John: I fit in that category too for a really long time. When I first quit the television business and started out, I was a headshot photographer here in New York City. And for I don't know, two years my face never existed on any social platform. It was literally face after face after face after face. And by the way, no caption whatsoever, no call to action. God forbid there was a hashtag. I mean, I'm just throwing stuff. What do I need to be in front of the camera? I'm behind the camera, but what I've realized over time and working with seventy five million different experts is that it's important to remember that these photos aren't about you. These photos are about them because it's giving them that opportunity to connect with you. It's not a vanity project. You're not a model. You're not trying to be an actor, but you're using these photos in a really positive way that does not necessarily need to go down the ego-driven path. Of course, there are plenty of people who do that. And it satiates their appetite to post nine billion photos of themselves. But for those who are more reserved, for those who don't exactly gravitate to a lens, understand that there's a bigger thing here at play. And it's your opportunity to get more at bats to do the thing that you do. And that's really it.
Austin: Man, this is so good. It's so true. And it speaks to a much more positive psychology associated to this kind of thing. And actually this runs parallel. This is slightly outside of the domain of pictures in your business, images in your business. But in sales and marketing, I find that a lot of time people are really wrapped around the idea of what's in it for them. You know, they're constantly thinking about the fact that they're gonna get a paycheck when they're doing sales.
Austin: But that's not the right psychology. You're not trying to extract money from somebody. You're trying to help them. And if the attitude going into a sales conversation is I'm trying to help you, then the vibe is totally different. And I think the way somebody feels about doing pictures and videos and things in their business can change in a similar way with what you're describing right now. Or if you're thinking about it from the perspective of the customer, it's a relationship tool, like a good picture of you helps develop a relationship because then they're taking the abstract concepts that they might read about on your website and then connecting them to a person's face, which is a deep-seated thing that's important to connection between humans. So yeah, it comes down to base root psychology for people, I think, to have good pictures. I guess that's where that connection was going.
John: And it also ties into our human wiring because we make meaning through visuals. And just think about any time that you personally have hired an expert and you ask a couple of your colleagues for some referrals and you get a couple back, and let's say you got three, are you gonna call all three immediately or are you gonna do a little stalking first?
Austin: Yeah, probably gonna do some stalking. I think most people do. Even for the places I go buy food, like at restaurants, I'm doing a little bit of internet stalking before I'm picking up the phone to see if they have openings.
John: That's what I'm saying. And what are you doing? You're looking at the pictures. In the way that I see it, in the way that I talk about it with my clients and when I present this in front of groups, it's that one particular moment, that 10, 15, 30 seconds that someone takes impulsively to scan your website or a social page. They're not reading your life story. They're not diving deep yet. What they're doing is checking for that feeling of whether or not are they legit? Do they look current? Do they look like someone that I can trust to deliver on their promise? And they're doing it impulsively because we all do this impulsively. And that's where, having images that are in alignment with the level that you're at is important because you then check that box of looking the part. Now obviously that only gets you in the door, but what keeps you in the house is your IP and it's your testimonials and case studies and it's also your sales conversation. But when you have that proper perspective of what these visuals do, which is to get that initial moment for them to say, you know what? I wanna learn more about this. Let me schedule the consult call, and that's it.
Austin: Yeah. Well, look, if you review the data and I just think about anecdotally, with all the many, many, many, many speakers that I talk to and coaches and consultants, everybody in this thought leadership category is suffering from the same sort of problems. But they always say that if they can get somebody on the phone, getting them to the finish line usually isn't that big of an issue. You're gonna lose some, obviously, but we have really good odds if we can get them on the phone and actually get that pitch. Where they struggle is getting to that moment. The moment where somebody is willing to take some time out of their day to have a serious sales discussion with John Doe, the keynote speaker, about his presentation. And so you're talking about something that impacts arguably the part that needs the most help for the average person that might be listening to this podcast.
John: Well, I guess the way to put it is at minimum, what's important for me when sharing this type of information with speakers is that don't look at your photos simply as nice to have. They're not throw pillows on that chair that's sitting in the living room that no one sits on. They're actually part of the rebar and the foundation of the house. It's business infrastructure. Along with all of the other tools and all of the other pieces, it needs to be seen within that context because it does play an important role. Your speaker reel plays an important role. Your video content plays an important role. And then, like you said, if we can just get to the conversation, well, that is a whole piece unto itself. And then having the outreach part in place. But when you think of photos as more than just decoration and you don't see them as a vanity play and you see it as an integral piece of this whole pipeline to get someone to go from "Who the hell is that?" to "I need that person in my room now," that's where it sits.
Austin: Yeah. And look, Technically Speaking I know isn't the only podcast that you've been on and I know you go speak at the NSA chapters frequently and so you're developing and delivering your own thought leadership content in this space, which is interesting and I love that about you. And I think that you're kind of speaking to that piece, right, that has to be communicated in this type of format. It goes beyond just aesthetics and it looking good, being decorations to use the word that you used. There's actually some really deep strategy behind this. And I think that it's so easy to just assume the level of importance that it might have without digging deeper. And you're the only person that I can think of that's out there having this conversation with people. So anyways, I think that's why you're here. It's because people need to think about this. It's a variable that is not considered very often.
John: Yeah, here's what it boils down to. In this day and age, with all the AI slop floating around, let alone the ninety thousand other experts that are in your space, you're up against it for attention. And on top of that, the type of attention that people need to get is from a more genuine and real place now more than ever because they want to know they're not talking to a chatbot, that they're with a living, breathing human being. So it's not enough to say who you are anymore. It's not enough to put up the NASCAR-style "trusted by" banner and have the 57 logos. Yes, it's important. And what also is important is that you show them what it looks like to be in your world learning from you. And also with a healthy layer on top of it, of your essence and your personality to connect with people beyond the way that you can solve their problem. When you think of those two things in concert, that is what is gonna help create differentiation for you, especially now.
Austin: I love the concept of your pictures showing people what it looks like to be working with you in various categories. And I know for you, I've studied a lot of the pictures that you take. It's not just people on stage, it's somebody standing in a boardroom or connecting after the event, shaking hands and kissing babies, and you're showing what it looks like to be doing more than just the obvious thing. And what's cool about that to me is that you're sort of forcing the looker, the person seeing the image, to imagine what it must be like to be in your presence, to be watching you do your thing. And that's a very different headspace than just a headshot of you. You know, it's not just about the picture of you to show the world what you look like. It's partially to get people into the headspace of participating in this thing that you're doing. Right.
John: Well, the core assets, the headshots that you're referring to, which are also some of the wider photos that you'll see in speaker kits where an expert will be sitting at a table or leaning against a wall or whatever, those are the foundational pieces and every business owner, period, needs those for a multitude of reasons because they go across all different touch points of your online presence. But what you're talking about specifically ties right into that "don't just tell me, show me" piece, which is the visual evidence type photos, which gives people that bird's eye view as to what it looks like for your day to day, whether you're working by yourself, taking moments of reflection or working on a laptop or doing whatever it is that you do that's a part of your process. As well as showing what it looks like when you're in front of people who pay you money, whether it's on a stage or as you mentioned in a boardroom or on a screen just like this or on the phone.
John: The point being is whatever is in the shop front window, you need to have photos that represent whatever those things are, regardless if you're a coach, consultant, trainer, run a mastermind, have an online community, write a book, fill in the blank with all of the different things that experts do, in addition to speaking on a stage. And when you do that and you intentionally create this library of images, then you are able to deploy them in a really specific way so that it enhances all of the copy that those photos live with, whether it's in an article or on a website or in a PDF or in a proposal. It doesn't matter because photos never fly alone and photos strengthen the words. They visually punctuate the sentiment of the meaning of what those words are. And that's why it's important to get those kinds of images to really add to your credibility.
Austin: Yeah. Visually punctuate the sentiment feels like a T-shirt that we should produce for the John DeMato brand.
John: Visual punctuation right across the top. Yeah.
Austin: Yeah, that's exactly right. It just sounds cool. So you mentioned a couple of different scenarios, the headshots versus the you-doing-your-thing pictures. This is a system show, okay? So let's start building the framework for people for a second here. Where are the places that you're looking and the formats of pictures that you're looking for when you're checking to see if one of your clients or potential clients' pictures suck or not?
John: Well, generally speaking, and I honestly I never look at anything that they post before I talk to them.
Austin: Really? Why is that?
John: God forbid they send me a mood board with ten other experts. I actually just wrote an article about that where I'm like, don't even bother sending it, I'm not gonna open it.
Austin: My gosh. I like it. I respect somebody who knows what they need and what they don't need.
John: Yeah, well, here's the reality. The system starts very simply. It starts with them. It starts with a pre-session call. If we're talking about actually anything I photograph, including authors' books or events or whatever, there is a strategy call before everything. I don't walk in blind because I want to know what the key ingredients are. For an event or what's in the book. And then for a branding session, we get real nitty-gritty, we get real nerdy. Because what I'm looking to understand is, as I mentioned before, they need to showcase their personality and essence. So we start with two questions that identify words that specifically tie into how they want to be perceived by their audience and aspects of their personality they want to convey to them. And that becomes the blueprint North Star for the types of emotions that will exist throughout this visual authority library.
John: And then as I mentioned before, I mentioned two of the categories of the photos. First, we have the core assets, which are the headshots and the wider portraits. And then I mentioned the visual evidence piece, which is the working solo as well as working in front of people who pay you money to have images of that. And then there is a third category called the missing details. And within the missing details, we have the professional signals, which are the books, the IP, the awards, the branding, the swag, all of the stuff that shows artifacts that represent a body of evidence that you didn't just hang a shingle up four minutes ago and called yourself an expert. You actually have a track record. And then the second piece to the missing details is the personal touches, the hobbies, the family, the passions outside of the work you do. When you think about what you want to share with your audience, what you're doing there is creating that connective tissue between being the superhero that can come down and transform their lives alongside the human being that you can have a cup of coffee with in the morning and be friendly with.
John: That's the combination we want to get with the missing details. And then throughout this whole thing, obviously, professional photographer here, right? But one thing to also keep in mind when it comes to the visual evidence and the missing details is that there are moments within your business that are impactful, whether it's on a personal side or a professional side. And since you're not Gary Vaynerchuk and you don't have someone stalking you around with a camera 24-7, you have to capture those moments. And the good news is that every single person has a camera at the ready 24-7. And it's important to capture those moments, capture it with the people, capture it by yourself, capture, if you're walking down the street and something inspires you to write something down, take a picture and share it and make it relevant and valuable for your audience. Show the messy desk. Show what it looks like before a keynote, after a keynote. Share all of those things and that's what helps fill in the gaps. It adds the texture. Whereas the professional photos are that foundational layer that you need across all of your touch points to really inject that gravitas of being a high level operator and someone who is worth every penny that they charge.
Austin: There's something to be said about just a beautiful polished picture, right? That's crispy, the bokeh in the background. Everybody can recognize an awesome headshot when you see one. But yeah, at the same time, there's a little bit of a lack of authenticity, I think, that can almost be conveyed if that's all it ever is, is the perfect buttoned up stuff. And I think that you're speaking to that content in the middle, right? Kind of speak into that.
John: Well, remember what I just said before about those words? The words that illustrate the perception you want your audience to have of you as well as the aspects of your personality. When you bake those words into your facial expression and your body language in these images, that is what helps create that subtle balance between polished, is it too polished? Well, there's the rough around the edges part that makes you you. Combining that together is what creates that level of being super genuine in these photos. And by the way, minus crazy retouching and shaving off 20 pounds in 10 years, none of that crap. You are who you are, but it's in the best light possible. The camera captures you in a way that really presents you genuinely but also with a level of sophistication and artistry alongside it. It all just creates that curbside appeal that gets people to lean in a little more and say, ooh, who's this person? That's it. And then by the way, when you mix in the smartphone photos, that's what helps bring the balance as well. Because more times than not, folks that don't know how to use a camera ain't exactly gonna be shooting works of art over here. But that's not the point. The point of it is to add that layer of real and raw and it's in the moment and it doesn't matter if it's not well composed. It captures a real thing for people to connect with.
Austin: It's like watching a home video. You know, it's approachable in a different way than some super polished, high production demo video or something might not have. It feels like you get to know somebody better. It's relational.
John: And you know this better than I do. We are in the business of building relationships more than anything else. And that's one of the ways in this day and age to break through the noise and just be you.
Austin: Yep. So I'm thinking, okay, there's a million places where images like this are being used. And if I'm somebody listening to this episode right now, I'm thinking, certainly I bet there's more current, up to date pictures I could be using than what I am using right now. Where do I go hunt? What's the checklist that I follow to make sure that the pictures in all the commonplace are being touched? What are the different places you would look with your client to make sure that the pictures are looking consistent across all of the different work, you know?
John: Well, when I do this kind of work for certain clients, we start at home base. We start at the website. We start there, we go through the homepage, all the service pages, the abouts, the book page, the fill in the blanks, and we look to see if the images that are there are working or if they're out of date or if there is a hole and it should be filled with an image as opposed to some kind of really crazy cool animation, but it doesn't have a soul to it, we then swap in the new images. And for ones where the photos are out of date and there is nothing new to put in there, that's a gap that has to be filled next time. And then we go to the social profile pages. Headshots obviously gotta go, or assessed at the minimum, but generally speaking, after a new session, that's getting replaced. And then for some folks, their banner images might need an update with an updated photo as well. And if we're talking about LinkedIn, what is in your featured section, all of the different sections that have images on LinkedIn, it's worth a look to see, okay, I'm using some stock photo that eight hundred other people used. Is there something in my library of my own photos that I could use that would replace that moving forward? We do that.
John: And then we start to get into more specific stuff. For some folks, the one sheet. I just actually did this with a client about a month ago where we spent two hours going through some branding photos and event photos I took of him and swapped out stuff that the designer had put in. He didn't quite feel the vibe of it. So we audited and did that. But then there are other places. For some folks they have PDFs that have images. Other folks they have online courses. Think about your primary touch points first, which would be website and social profiles and LinkedIn. Nail that. Then think of where your secondary spots are. If you're a speaker, it's a one sheet, and thinking about not just the images that are the inlay on the one sheet, but also the downloadable images of you speaking as well as headshots and portraits, audit that. But then think about other areas in your business that have these images and just systematically go one at a time and you're making a checklist of, are these photos still good? Are they out of date? Do they need to be replaced? Do I have a replacement for them? And if not, make the note and be sure that during a branding session or during your next event when you hire a photographer, or God forbid the house photographer actually delivers something usable, then you have something to swap in. But the audit, it is customized. Once we get past the top layer and a little bit of that second layer, it's a grab bag because every expert is different and they all choose their own adventure. But it's just really about being hyper aware about where you're using images and really being intentional about how you think about them and not just checking a box.
Austin: Yeah. And there's a little bit of that too, they gotta make sure we cover the bases. And I think it's really easy to get pigeonholed in any category and so obsessed with the idea of perfection that it never gets done. So there's definitely we need proper coverage, right? But at the same time, yeah, there's balance somewhere.
John: Well, you bring up something interesting because the reality is there is no mountaintop. It's never done. Businesses evolve over time, your body, your appearance evolves over time, your style evolves over time, the rooms you're in evolve, the people that you serve evolve. And as a result, that's why the visual authority library I talked about before, it's not a one and done thing. It's a living, breathing thing. As you evolve, so do your photos. Because otherwise, if you're still posting stuff from ten years ago, you're gonna lose the trust of the room because it makes you look, is this person still working? This photo clearly looks dated. Are they still relevant? Are they still credible? Are they still the person that people who need that kind of help go to for it? And if you're posting the same stuff over and over again and it's severely outdated, it's a problem.
Austin: So let's say somebody stays pretty on top of the day to day sort of stuff, right? They keep their pictures consistent, they post on LinkedIn and they got some good just normal smartphone pictures in there so they can show the texture of life. So that stuff's cooking. How often do you recommend somebody get new professional headshots taken? If you're Great Clips saying, Hey, come back for your next haircut in X amount of time, how long between headshot sessions?
John: So it depends, but here's what it depends on. Number one, we're not just talking about headshots, right? We're talking full branding session, right? I just want to make sure that we were on the same page with that.
Austin: Yeah, like a good refresh.
John: So basically, it comes down to a couple of things. If your appearance changes, that's an immediate signal. That's a quickie. But then if you're still doing the same stuff, the photos represent the rooms you're in, the people you serve, the work that you do for them, all that good stuff. As long as you keep sharing photos that still feel fresh to you, I'd say you don't need to update them. There's no hard and fast rule on this. I send a client for a typical four hour session, I don't know, somewhere between four hundred and fifty and six hundred photos, and they're all categorized by different type, ten, twelve different types of images that we captured during that session. If they're running them, you know, twice a week as social posts and maybe one here and there for a thumbnail. And obviously all the touch point stuff has been taken care of, but that lives on its own. When thinking about content, two separate, you can use different photos for your online content. If you're still using them and it still feels fresh and it's not stale, keep with it. But the moment that you start feeling like, man, this is the fifth time I'm using a shot of me at this same table, you know, working on this laptop or the photo of me where I'm journaling in the corner or the ones where I'm in front of the whiteboard with the same stuff on the background. Yeah, then it's time to update. So it's one of those things. It's more of a signal rather than a drop dead date you must change. Unless of course, if your appearance changes, then that's the signal.
Austin: Yep. That makes sense. Are there any spots that you feel like people are not paying close enough attention to, on average? Spots that you think are just low hanging fruit for the industry as a whole as you've been watching this category for so long.
John: It involves their event photography. One of the things that I see often from speakers is, look, the big wide shot, the IMAGs, you got the smoke, you got the laser lights coming out, you got the thousand people in the audience.
Austin: Very exciting. That's a very exciting picture.
John: It is, and I've shot those and they're awesome. The problem though is that you're this tiny little peanut, and yeah, you can make sense of them on the IMAG, and it is a huge credibility builder, no doubt about it. The thing that many speakers don't take into account is everything else. And by everything else, I don't just mean everything that happens in that room. From five million different vantage points where you're on the left side of the screen, the right side of the screen where it's a close-up of you passionately delivering and you doing the speaker finger thing, you know, which I've coincidentally caught myself laughing to myself because now I'm doing it when I present. But in either case, those kinds of photos, then shooting the audience participating, taking notes, taking video clips of you, taking shots of your slides. All the stuff that happens in the room. Then going back and thinking about the stuff that happens beforehand. You rehearsing maybe either backstage or in your hotel room, going over the slides by yourself, and then working with the AV team, talking to the event producer, meeting with the client, having a laugh beforehand, pacing around, prepping, looking at your notes.
John: All of that before stuff is valuable because it shows, especially when you're with the AV team and when you're talking to the client backstage, it shows that you're a team player, it shows you care. And those are the kinds of images that will really help you when people are making those quick decisions, whether like, do I trust that this person is not gonna drop the ball, and they see that kind of stuff, the collaborative nature, it's gonna draw them in more. And then after the event, whether it's a book signing, or if you're simply standing out in the hallway and people are giving you hugs, they're taking selfies, they're saying how impactful your presentation was. We need to see all of that stuff too. Because when you paint the full beginning, middle, and end, you now have a full story arc that not only can serve the primary touch points to share these images so people can see them like, this is a good person and look at all the work that they do and the impact that they create. But also it's content that you can share online through articles and social posts. Showing, writing a testimonial by itself is great. It's super important. Imagine if there was a photo of you hugging that person at the same time. Now all of a sudden you got a money piece that's gonna really get your attention because it's got a lot of juice.
Austin: Yeah, so true. The emotional pull of it is so much stronger than words ever can be. And man, many of the people that listen to this episode will know you already. You're around. You're around as much as many of the other people in this space are. So I'm sure this is not much of an unknown. But if somebody doesn't know you yet and wants to see the cool stuff that you're doing, where would they find you? What's the best place to find you? And then number two, we've built some interesting stuff for you over the years, including a really cool audit that people can take. Do you have any resources and tools that you can share that people can go check out?
John: Yeah, actually. And thank you for the build, by the way. It was a magical process.
Austin: You're welcome. You do cool stuff.
John: Best place for people to find me is johndemato.com. And there you'll find my social profiles at the bottom. You just come say hi wherever you want. LinkedIn, shoot me an email, you know. And as you mentioned, the audit that you're talking about, basically what it does is it puts you in the driver's seat of being the decision maker while looking through those primary touch points that we talked about earlier. Your website, your LinkedIn, and you saw, actually, your speaker kit is also one of them as well. And basically it asks you to honestly assess how you feel about where the images are and then I'll send you a little more information on what you can do about it.
